Discussion:
Did we evolve to die? And can we change that?-news story
(too old to reply)
andromeda
2004-09-27 13:52:08 UTC
Permalink
If aging is programmed into our genes, we might just be able to do something
about it, some researchers think.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/040927_ageprogramfrm.htm
Immortalist
2004-09-27 15:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by andromeda
If aging is programmed into our genes, we might just be able to do something
about it, some researchers think.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/040927_ageprogramfrm.htm
Some think the reverse, that mostly animals were killed before they could live
out their entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain since
these couldn't be selected out by natural selection if the animal didn't live
long enough for the selection.

But yes, genes are like a word processor with the wonderful editing tools called
cut and paste so that the composition has a means to improvement if the
sufficient method is applied either by nature or some other equivalency of
agency.
Tim
2004-09-28 14:51:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
If aging is programmed into our genes, we might just be able to do something
about it, some researchers think.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/040927_ageprogramfrm.htm
Some think the reverse, that mostly animals were killed before they could live
out their entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain since
these couldn't be selected out by natural selection if the animal didn't live
long enough for the selection.
But yes, genes are like a word processor with the wonderful editing tools called
cut and paste so that the composition has a means to improvement if the
sufficient method is applied either by nature or some other equivalency of
agency.
See what I mean smokee - what you've written here is nonsense.

You said: "...mostly animals were killed before they could live out their
entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain..."

So, according to you, death of animals causes disease and pain; furthermore
an animals life span is apparently different from an animals life span. Is
this your idea of philosophy smokee?

You also go on to compare genes to a word processor and let's not forget the
accolades for c&p. This is telling smokeee; very, very telling.

I know I dis you allot but I promise if you don't write anything of your own
in the future (I know you haven't done too much in the past) and all you do
is C&P I'll leave you alone. The c&p is much easier to take.
Immortalist
2004-09-28 15:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by andromeda
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
If aging is programmed into our genes, we might just be able to do
something
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
about it, some researchers think.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/040927_ageprogramfrm.htm
Some think the reverse, that mostly animals were killed before they could
live
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain
since
Post by Immortalist
these couldn't be selected out by natural selection if the animal didn't
live
Post by Immortalist
long enough for the selection.
But yes, genes are like a word processor with the wonderful editing tools
called
Post by Immortalist
cut and paste so that the composition has a means to improvement if the
sufficient method is applied either by nature or some other equivalency of
agency.
See what I mean smokee - what you've written here is nonsense.
You said: "...mostly animals were killed before they could live out their
entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain..."
So, according to you, death of animals causes disease and pain; furthermore
an animals life span is apparently different from an animals life span. Is
this your idea of philosophy smokee?
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step in
with us dude.

Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in exceptionally
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they lived
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be selected
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their entire
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that live out
their entire lifspans without predation.
Post by andromeda
You also go on to compare genes to a word processor and let's not forget the
accolades for c&p. This is telling smokeee; very, very telling.
Well in evolutionary theory we talk about mutations. These are similar to cut and
paste in that some genes can be either added or subtracted.

In the future when we talk about evolution I'l try to talk on a more basic level
for you, sorry.
Post by andromeda
I know I dis you allot but I promise if you don't write anything of your own
in the future (I know you haven't done too much in the past) and all you do
is C&P I'll leave you alone. The c&p is much easier to take.
Actually if we tally up what has been said over the last week I have said much
more than you, I don't know what your talking about. Can you show any evidence
for that claim?

Here are your comments

http://tinyurl.com/5ms5c
http://www.cygnal.ca/english/

and here are mine

http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&th=d1e1c4e27aefddb7&seekm=104pkdkq75t7855%40corp.supernews.com#link1

now subtract all pastes from my comments and then set the remainder next to yours
and you really will look like you havn't said much.
Immortalist
2004-09-28 15:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
If aging is programmed into our genes, we might just be able to do
something
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
about it, some researchers think.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/040927_ageprogramfrm.htm
Some think the reverse, that mostly animals were killed before they could
live
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain
since
Post by Immortalist
these couldn't be selected out by natural selection if the animal didn't
live
Post by Immortalist
long enough for the selection.
But yes, genes are like a word processor with the wonderful editing tools
called
Post by Immortalist
cut and paste so that the composition has a means to improvement if the
sufficient method is applied either by nature or some other equivalency of
agency.
See what I mean smokee - what you've written here is nonsense.
You said: "...mostly animals were killed before they could live out their
entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain..."
So, according to you, death of animals causes disease and pain; furthermore
an animals life span is apparently different from an animals life span. Is
this your idea of philosophy smokee?
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step in
with us dude.
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in exceptionally
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they lived
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be selected
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their entire
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that live out
their entire lifspans without predation.
Post by andromeda
You also go on to compare genes to a word processor and let's not forget the
accolades for c&p. This is telling smokeee; very, very telling.
Well in evolutionary theory we talk about mutations. These are similar to cut and
paste in that some genes can be either added or subtracted.
In the future when we talk about evolution I'l try to talk on a more basic level
for you, sorry.
Post by andromeda
I know I dis you allot but I promise if you don't write anything of your own
in the future (I know you haven't done too much in the past) and all you do
is C&P I'll leave you alone. The c&p is much easier to take.
Actually if we tally up what has been said over the last week I have said much
more than you, I don't know what your talking about. Can you show any evidence
for that claim?
Here are your comments
http://tinyurl.com/5ms5c
http://www.cygnal.ca/english/
and here are mine
http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=UTF-8&as_ugroup=alt.philosophy.*&as_uauthors=reanimater_2000%40yahoo.com%20&lr=&hl=en
http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&th=d1e1c4e27aefddb7&seekm=104pkdkq75t7855%40corp.supernews.com#link1
Post by Immortalist
now subtract all pastes from my comments and then set the remainder next to yours
and you really will look like you havn't said much.
Tim
2004-09-28 17:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
If aging is programmed into our genes, we might just be able to do
something
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
about it, some researchers think.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/040927_ageprogramfrm.htm
Some think the reverse, that mostly animals were killed before they could
live
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain
since
Post by Immortalist
these couldn't be selected out by natural selection if the animal didn't
live
Post by Immortalist
long enough for the selection.
But yes, genes are like a word processor with the wonderful editing tools
called
Post by Immortalist
cut and paste so that the composition has a means to improvement if the
sufficient method is applied either by nature or some other equivalency of
agency.
See what I mean smokee - what you've written here is nonsense.
You said: "...mostly animals were killed before they could live out their
entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain..."
So, according to you, death of animals causes disease and pain; furthermore
an animals life span is apparently different from an animals life span. Is
this your idea of philosophy smokee?
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step in
with us dude.
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they lived
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be selected
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their entire
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that live out
their entire lifspans without predation.
Post by andromeda
You also go on to compare genes to a word processor and let's not forget the
accolades for c&p. This is telling smokeee; very, very telling.
Well in evolutionary theory we talk about mutations. These are similar to cut and
paste in that some genes can be either added or subtracted.
In the future when we talk about evolution I'l try to talk on a more basic level
for you, sorry.
Post by andromeda
I know I dis you allot but I promise if you don't write anything of your own
in the future (I know you haven't done too much in the past) and all you do
is C&P I'll leave you alone. The c&p is much easier to take.
Actually if we tally up what has been said over the last week I have said much
more than you, I don't know what your talking about. Can you show any evidence
for that claim?
Ahh yes if only quantity equalled quality.
Post by Immortalist
Here are your comments
http://tinyurl.com/5ms5c
http://www.cygnal.ca/english/
and here are mine
http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&th=d1e1c4e27aefddb7&seekm=104pkdkq75t7855%40corp.supernews.com#link1
Post by Immortalist
now subtract all pastes from my comments and then set the remainder next to yours
and you really will look like you havn't said much.
Then subtract the literate stuff from the illiterate (you'll have to do it
in that order or you'll end up with a negative number).
Keynes
2004-09-28 20:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
If aging is programmed into our genes, we might just be able to do
something
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
about it, some researchers think.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/040927_ageprogramfrm.htm
Some think the reverse, that mostly animals were killed before they could
live
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain
since
Post by Immortalist
these couldn't be selected out by natural selection if the animal didn't
live
Post by Immortalist
long enough for the selection.
But yes, genes are like a word processor with the wonderful editing tools
called
Post by Immortalist
cut and paste so that the composition has a means to improvement if the
sufficient method is applied either by nature or some other equivalency of
agency.
See what I mean smokee - what you've written here is nonsense.
You said: "...mostly animals were killed before they could live out their
entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain..."
So, according to you, death of animals causes disease and pain; furthermore
an animals life span is apparently different from an animals life span. Is
this your idea of philosophy smokee?
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step in
with us dude.
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in exceptionally
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they lived
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be selected
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their entire
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that live out
their entire lifspans without predation.
Once an organism has reproduced, it is no longer included in evolution.
What happens to one who has already bred usually doesn't matter.
In some cases where offspring are few, the continued life of parents
(and grandmothers) until young are adult can be an evolutionary advantage.
The long youth of humans compared to other mammals may require
a longer life in their parents if progeny are to succeed in breeding.

Sexual reproduction shuffles the evolutionary deck with each generation.
Some think this is a defense against parasitism, since resistence in hosts
proceeds faster than virulence in parasites. It could account for the
great success of almost universal sexual reproduction in plants and
animals.

Cells do seem to be made to wear out. The evolutionary advantage
in this is to give space to the multiplication of novel more adaptive
generations.

But a cell is just the continuation of an immortal process that converts
miscellaneous food into discrete living things. The process began with
the first replicator which has never died, but is the very substance of
all living things. Individually they fall, but their collective is the one
immortal cell that will live as long as there is any life at all.
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
You also go on to compare genes to a word processor and let's not forget the
accolades for c&p. This is telling smokeee; very, very telling.
Well in evolutionary theory we talk about mutations. These are similar to cut and
paste in that some genes can be either added or subtracted.
In the future when we talk about evolution I'l try to talk on a more basic level
for you, sorry.
Post by andromeda
I know I dis you allot but I promise if you don't write anything of your own
in the future (I know you haven't done too much in the past) and all you do
is C&P I'll leave you alone. The c&p is much easier to take.
Actually if we tally up what has been said over the last week I have said much
more than you, I don't know what your talking about. Can you show any evidence
for that claim?
Here are your comments
http://tinyurl.com/5ms5c
http://www.cygnal.ca/english/
and here are mine
http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&th=d1e1c4e27aefddb7&seekm=104pkdkq75t7855%40corp.supernews.com#link1
now subtract all pastes from my comments and then set the remainder next to yours
and you really will look like you havn't said much.
Immortalist
2004-09-29 02:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keynes
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
If aging is programmed into our genes, we might just be able to do
something
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
about it, some researchers think.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/040927_ageprogramfrm.htm
Some think the reverse, that mostly animals were
killed before they could live out their entire life
span and this led to diseases and intractable pain
since these couldn't be selected out by natural selection
if the animal didn't live long enough for the selection.
But yes, genes are like a word processor with the
wonderful editing tools called cut and paste so that
the composition has a means to improvement if the
sufficient method is applied either by nature or
some other equivalency of agency.
You said: "...mostly animals were killed before they could live out their
entire life span and this led to diseases and intractable pain..."
So, according to you, death of animals causes disease and pain; furthermore
an animals life span is apparently different from an animals life span. Is
this your idea of philosophy smokee?
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step in
with us dude.
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in exceptionally
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they lived
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be selected
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their entire
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that live out
their entire lifspans without predation.
Once an organism has reproduced, it is no longer included in evolution.
This may be true sometimes but if the post-reproductive individual provides an
advantage to the reproductively active individuals then there could be a
selective pressure which could mold particular traits.

Beside most men can reproduce well into their 90s but in most of history only
lived as long as 25 to 40 years. Plenty of room for the "genetic dust bin theory"
to be true. If most died in that short of a time and various mutations were
pasted into the genomes, and then the environment changed in a way to let them
live out their 90 years, then it would take many generations to get the mutations
back out of the genomes.
Post by Keynes
What happens to one who has already bred usually doesn't matter.
In some cases where offspring are few, the continued life of parents
(and grandmothers) until young are adult can be an evolutionary advantage.
The long youth of humans compared to other mammals may require
a longer life in their parents if progeny are to succeed in breeding.
Sexual reproduction shuffles the evolutionary deck with each generation.
Some think this is a defense against parasitism, since resistence in hosts
proceeds faster than virulence in parasites. It could account for the
great success of almost universal sexual reproduction in plants and
animals.
Cells do seem to be made to wear out. The evolutionary advantage
in this is to give space to the multiplication of novel more adaptive
generations.
But a cell is just the continuation of an immortal process that converts
miscellaneous food into discrete living things. The process began with
the first replicator which has never died, but is the very substance of
all living things. Individually they fall, but their collective is the one
immortal cell that will live as long as there is any life at all.
Pretty good description. But the focus is vague.
Post by Keynes
Post by Immortalist
Post by andromeda
You also go on to compare genes to a word processor and let's not forget the
accolades for c&p. This is telling smokeee; very, very telling.
Well in evolutionary theory we talk about mutations. These are similar to cut and
paste in that some genes can be either added or subtracted.
Nico Kadel-Garcia
2004-09-30 01:58:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step in
with us dude.
You should rent a clue.
Post by Immortalist
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they lived
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be selected
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their entire
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that live out
their entire lifspans without predation.
The idea that "their full life span" is infinite is ridiculous. Longer than
their current average life span, sure. But evenutally complex organic
systems break down, due to factors like cancer, even without the telomeric
limitations of DNA being replicated.
Immortalist
2004-09-30 04:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step
in
Post by Immortalist
with us dude.
You should rent a clue.
Do you understand the person's position that I said that to? And of course you
thought I was talking to you? Who are you and why get aroused about what I said
to him?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they
lived
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be
selected
Post by Immortalist
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their
entire
Post by Immortalist
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that
live out
Post by Immortalist
their entire lifspans without predation.
The idea that "their full life span" is infinite is ridiculous.
Which part of the statement did you take as meaning "infinite" or what do you
mean by this?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Longer than
their current average life span, sure. But evenutally complex organic
systems break down, due to factors like cancer, even without the telomeric
limitations of DNA being replicated.
When I asserted that, if the individuals are killed by predation before they
would have normally died then mutations, that would influence or be expressed
during that later time, could slip into their genomes with nearly no selective
pressure against or for those mutations. By saying that I did not necessarily
eliminate or promote the possibility that factors like cancer could still happen
or not. There is no contradiction here because it is based upon a contingency
which asserts neither possibility to propose the thesis that mutations can creep
in because of predation shortening lifespans. This theory of senilicidical traits
is 30 years old anyways.
Bob's Boyfriend
2004-09-30 06:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step
in
Post by Immortalist
with us dude.
You should rent a clue.
Do you understand the person's position that I said that to? And of course you
thought I was talking to you? Who are you and why get aroused about what I said
to him?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they
lived
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be
selected
Post by Immortalist
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their
entire
Post by Immortalist
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that
live out
Post by Immortalist
their entire lifspans without predation.
The idea that "their full life span" is infinite is ridiculous.
Which part of the statement did you take as meaning "infinite" or what do you
mean by this?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Longer than
their current average life span, sure. But evenutally complex organic
systems break down, due to factors like cancer, even without the telomeric
limitations of DNA being replicated.
When I asserted that, if the individuals are killed by predation before they
would have normally died then mutations,
Predation? I'm noticing that there is a particular leaning towards
paranoia in several threads. Which humans are being preyed upon and by
whom?

I'm curious how people who tend to view themselves as rational and
intelligent view themselves as possible, probable and then likely
victims of such predation.
Post by Immortalist
that would influence or be expressed
during that later time, could slip into their genomes with nearly no selective
pressure against or for those mutations. By saying that I did not necessarily
eliminate or promote the possibility that factors like cancer could still happen
or not. There is no contradiction here because it is based upon a contingency
which asserts neither possibility to propose the thesis that mutations can creep
in because of predation shortening lifespans. This theory of senilicidical traits
is 30 years old anyways.
Immortalist
2004-09-30 17:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step
in
Post by Immortalist
with us dude.
You should rent a clue.
Do you understand the person's position that I said that to? And of course you
thought I was talking to you? Who are you and why get aroused about what I said
to him?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they
lived
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be
selected
Post by Immortalist
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their
entire
Post by Immortalist
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that
live out
Post by Immortalist
their entire lifspans without predation.
The idea that "their full life span" is infinite is ridiculous.
Which part of the statement did you take as meaning "infinite" or what do you
mean by this?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Longer than
their current average life span, sure. But evenutally complex organic
systems break down, due to factors like cancer, even without the telomeric
limitations of DNA being replicated.
When I asserted that, if the individuals are killed by predation before they
would have normally died then mutations,
Predation? I'm noticing that there is a particular leaning towards
paranoia in several threads. Which humans are being preyed upon and by
whom?
During the ancient past, particularly in the Pleistocene period the homo group
(Australopithecus) was preyed upon by predators in Africa. But during much of
civilization the actual life span was about 25 to 45 years but the biological
life span was much longer. So not only predators but barbaric cultural realities
sustained the influx of senilicidical traits.
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
I'm curious how people who tend to view themselves as rational and
intelligent view themselves as possible, probable and then likely
victims of such predation.
Rational people would generally believe it highly unlikely that most people could
be forced back into such barbarism but they are not ignorant enough to insist
that they couldn't be as your propositions seems to indicate you believe to be
the case.
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
that would influence or be expressed
during that later time, could slip into their genomes with nearly no selective
pressure against or for those mutations. By saying that I did not necessarily
eliminate or promote the possibility that factors like cancer could still happen
or not. There is no contradiction here because it is based upon a contingency
which asserts neither possibility to propose the thesis that mutations can creep
in because of predation shortening lifespans. This theory of senilicidical traits
is 30 years old anyways.
Bob's Boyfriend
2004-09-30 21:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you step
in
Post by Immortalist
with us dude.
You should rent a clue.
Do you understand the person's position that I said that to? And of
course
you
thought I was talking to you? Who are you and why get aroused about what
I
said
to him?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if they
lived
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not be
selected
Post by Immortalist
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out their
entire
Post by Immortalist
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that
live out
Post by Immortalist
their entire lifspans without predation.
The idea that "their full life span" is infinite is ridiculous.
Which part of the statement did you take as meaning "infinite" or what do you
mean by this?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Longer than
their current average life span, sure. But evenutally complex organic
systems break down, due to factors like cancer, even without the telomeric
limitations of DNA being replicated.
When I asserted that, if the individuals are killed by predation before they
would have normally died then mutations,
Predation? I'm noticing that there is a particular leaning towards
paranoia in several threads. Which humans are being preyed upon and by
whom?
During the ancient past, particularly in the Pleistocene period the homo group
(Australopithecus) was preyed upon by predators in Africa. But during much of
civilization the actual life span was about 25 to 45 years but the biological
life span was much longer. So not only predators but barbaric cultural realities
sustained the influx of senilicidical traits.
There is nothing that I can find in the post that you responded to above
that concened itself with earlier hominid species. In fact, the
statement above was "longer than their current life span".

My question was and which went unanswered (and I'll be more time
specific) which humans of today are being preyed upon and by what or
whom?
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
I'm curious how people who tend to view themselves as rational and
intelligent view themselves as possible, probable and then likely
victims of such predation.
Rational people would generally believe it highly unlikely that most people could
be forced back into such barbarism but they are not ignorant enough to insist
that they couldn't be as your propositions seems to indicate you believe to be
the case.
And I'm asking that we test the rationality of this premise. What do you
consider is the degree to which it "could" be this way?
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
that would influence or be expressed
during that later time, could slip into their genomes with nearly no selective
pressure against or for those mutations. By saying that I did not necessarily
eliminate or promote the possibility that factors like cancer could still happen
or not. There is no contradiction here because it is based upon a contingency
which asserts neither possibility to propose the thesis that mutations
can
creep
in because of predation shortening lifespans. This theory of
senilicidical
traits
is 30 years old anyways.
Immortalist
2004-10-01 05:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before you
step
in
Post by Immortalist
with us dude.
You should rent a clue.
Do you understand the person's position that I said that to? And of
course
you
thought I was talking to you? Who are you and why get aroused about what
I
said
to him?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to diseases, if
they
lived
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may not
be
selected
Post by Immortalist
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live out
their
entire
Post by Immortalist
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in species that
live out
Post by Immortalist
their entire lifspans without predation.
The idea that "their full life span" is infinite is ridiculous.
Which part of the statement did you take as meaning "infinite" or what do you
mean by this?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Longer than
their current average life span, sure. But evenutally complex organic
systems break down, due to factors like cancer, even without the telomeric
limitations of DNA being replicated.
When I asserted that, if the individuals are killed by predation before they
would have normally died then mutations,
Predation? I'm noticing that there is a particular leaning towards
paranoia in several threads. Which humans are being preyed upon and by
whom?
During the ancient past, particularly in the Pleistocene period the homo group
(Australopithecus) was preyed upon by predators in Africa. But during much of
civilization the actual life span was about 25 to 45 years but the biological
life span was much longer. So not only predators but barbaric cultural realities
sustained the influx of senilicidical traits.
There is nothing that I can find in the post that you responded to above
that concened itself with earlier hominid species. In fact, the
statement above was "longer than their current life span".
My question was and which went unanswered (and I'll be more time
specific) which humans of today are being preyed upon and by what or
whom?
I would ask you to try making another thread if you want to change the topic that
much. I was responding to the "traits that can creep into the genome" theory and
explained my position on that.
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
I'm curious how people who tend to view themselves as rational and
intelligent view themselves as possible, probable and then likely
victims of such predation.
Rational people would generally believe it highly unlikely that most people could
be forced back into such barbarism but they are not ignorant enough to insist
that they couldn't be as your propositions seems to indicate you believe to be
the case.
And I'm asking that we test the rationality of this premise. What do you
consider is the degree to which it "could" be this way?
Well the degree noticed between rich and poor countries?
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
that would influence or be expressed
during that later time, could slip into their genomes with nearly no selective
pressure against or for those mutations. By saying that I did not necessarily
eliminate or promote the possibility that factors like cancer could still
happen
or not. There is no contradiction here because it is based upon a contingency
which asserts neither possibility to propose the thesis that mutations
can
creep
in because of predation shortening lifespans. This theory of
senilicidical
traits
is 30 years old anyways.
Bob's Boyfriend
2004-10-01 10:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before
you
step
in
Post by Immortalist
with us dude.
You should rent a clue.
Do you understand the person's position that I said that to? And of
course
you
thought I was talking to you? Who are you and why get aroused about what
I
said
to him?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to
diseases, if
they
lived
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may
not
be
selected
Post by Immortalist
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live
out
their
entire
Post by Immortalist
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in
species
that
live out
Post by Immortalist
their entire lifspans without predation.
The idea that "their full life span" is infinite is ridiculous.
Which part of the statement did you take as meaning "infinite" or
what do
you
mean by this?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Longer than
their current average life span, sure. But evenutally complex organic
systems break down, due to factors like cancer, even without the
telomeric
limitations of DNA being replicated.
When I asserted that, if the individuals are killed by predation
before
they
would have normally died then mutations,
Predation? I'm noticing that there is a particular leaning towards
paranoia in several threads. Which humans are being preyed upon and by
whom?
During the ancient past, particularly in the Pleistocene period the homo group
(Australopithecus) was preyed upon by predators in Africa. But during much of
civilization the actual life span was about 25 to 45 years but the biological
life span was much longer. So not only predators but barbaric cultural realities
sustained the influx of senilicidical traits.
There is nothing that I can find in the post that you responded to above
that concened itself with earlier hominid species. In fact, the
statement above was "longer than their current life span".
My question was and which went unanswered (and I'll be more time
specific) which humans of today are being preyed upon and by what or
whom?
I would ask you to try making another thread if you want to change the topic that
much. I was responding to the "traits that can creep into the genome" theory and
explained my position on that.
It isn't another topic. It is a question based on an assertion in the
premise above.
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
I'm curious how people who tend to view themselves as rational and
intelligent view themselves as possible, probable and then likely
victims of such predation.
Rational people would generally believe it highly unlikely that most
people
could
be forced back into such barbarism but they are not ignorant enough to insist
that they couldn't be as your propositions seems to indicate you believe
to
be
the case.
And I'm asking that we test the rationality of this premise. What do you
consider is the degree to which it "could" be this way?
Well the degree noticed between rich and poor countries?
That's vague. Again, I must ask to what degree (a scale of 1 to 100
seems fair and reasonable) and by whom (an individual or a particular
group or other species)?
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
that would influence or be expressed
during that later time, could slip into their genomes with nearly no
selective
pressure against or for those mutations. By saying that I did not
necessarily
eliminate or promote the possibility that factors like cancer could still
happen
or not. There is no contradiction here because it is based upon a
contingency
which asserts neither possibility to propose the thesis that mutations
can
creep
in because of predation shortening lifespans. This theory of
senilicidical
traits
is 30 years old anyways.
Immortalist
2004-10-01 16:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about before
you
step
in
Post by Immortalist
with us dude.
You should rent a clue.
Do you understand the person's position that I said that to? And of
course
you
thought I was talking to you? Who are you and why get aroused about
what
I
said
to him?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to
diseases, if
they
lived
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed, may
not
be
selected
Post by Immortalist
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals live
out
their
entire
Post by Immortalist
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in
species
that
live out
Post by Immortalist
their entire lifspans without predation.
The idea that "their full life span" is infinite is ridiculous.
Which part of the statement did you take as meaning "infinite" or
what do
you
mean by this?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Longer than
their current average life span, sure. But evenutally complex
organic
systems break down, due to factors like cancer, even without the
telomeric
limitations of DNA being replicated.
When I asserted that, if the individuals are killed by predation
before
they
would have normally died then mutations,
Predation? I'm noticing that there is a particular leaning towards
paranoia in several threads. Which humans are being preyed upon and by
whom?
During the ancient past, particularly in the Pleistocene period the homo group
(Australopithecus) was preyed upon by predators in Africa. But during much of
civilization the actual life span was about 25 to 45 years but the biological
life span was much longer. So not only predators but barbaric cultural
realities
sustained the influx of senilicidical traits.
There is nothing that I can find in the post that you responded to above
that concened itself with earlier hominid species. In fact, the
statement above was "longer than their current life span".
My question was and which went unanswered (and I'll be more time
specific) which humans of today are being preyed upon and by what or
whom?
I would ask you to try making another thread if you want to change the topic that
much. I was responding to the "traits that can creep into the genome" theory and
explained my position on that.
It isn't another topic. It is a question based on an assertion in the
premise above.
When you entered me and Tim's conversation the subject was already shifted to the
effects of ancient enviroments upon trait creep into the genome. You tried to
change the subject to the present. We could change to the present if I can see
the relevence to the "genetic dust bin theory" we were debating.
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
I'm curious how people who tend to view themselves as rational and
intelligent view themselves as possible, probable and then likely
victims of such predation.
Rational people would generally believe it highly unlikely that most
people
could
be forced back into such barbarism but they are not ignorant enough to insist
that they couldn't be as your propositions seems to indicate you believe
to
be
the case.
And I'm asking that we test the rationality of this premise. What do you
consider is the degree to which it "could" be this way?
Well the degree noticed between rich and poor countries?
That's vague. Again, I must ask to what degree (a scale of 1 to 100
seems fair and reasonable) and by whom (an individual or a particular
group or other species)?
The degree currently would be higher or lower depending on the criterion or
standard of judgement. We haven't agreed to one yet. If you are asking me to post
a specific number what is the standard for judgeing such things;


The Problem of the Criterion

A general argument against the invocation of any standard for knowledge has come
to be known as "the problem of the criterion." As we have just seen, there have
been disputes about standards of knowledge. Some are about particular kinds of
arguments that provide evidence for knowledge claims. As we will see shortly,
others are about the degree of evidential support or reliability required for
knowledge. The Pyrrhonian skeptics used an argument designed to instill doubt
that any such standard can be established.

Suppose there is a dispute about a standard of knowledge. If the dispute is to be
settled rationally, there must be some means for settling it. It would do no good
of each side simply to assert its position without argument. So how would a
standard of knowledge (or "criterion of truth," in the language of the Stoics) be
defended? It could only be defended by reference to some standard or other. If
the standard under dispute is invoked, then the question has been begged. If
another standard is appealed to, the question arises again, to be answered either
by circular reasoning or by appeal to yet another standard. So either the process
of invoking standards does not terminate, or it ends in circular reasoning, and
in neither case would the dispute be settled rationally.

Lehrer takes on the problem of criterion in the guise of the question whether he
can justify his acceptance of his own theory of justification. He rejects the
appeal to a higher-order theory of justification as well as dogmatic acceptance
of the theory (p. 228). This leaves only circularity, or a "loop" of
justification. Lehrer defends the loop of justification as being virtuous.

http://hume.ucdavis.edu/phi102/tkch9.htm
http://hume.ucdavis.edu/phi102/lecmenu.htm
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
that would influence or be expressed
during that later time, could slip into their genomes with nearly no
selective
pressure against or for those mutations. By saying that I did not
necessarily
eliminate or promote the possibility that factors like cancer could
still
happen
or not. There is no contradiction here because it is based upon a
contingency
which asserts neither possibility to propose the thesis that mutations
can
creep
in because of predation shortening lifespans. This theory of
senilicidical
traits
is 30 years old anyways.
Bob's Boyfriend
2004-10-01 17:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
You should try and learn what evolutionary theory is about
before
you
step
in
Post by Immortalist
with us dude.
You should rent a clue.
Do you understand the person's position that I said that to? And of
course
you
thought I was talking to you? Who are you and why get aroused about
what
I
said
to him?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Post by Immortalist
Since the animals are not living out their full life spans in
exceptionally
Post by Immortalist
hazardous environments, any mutations that could lead to
diseases, if
they
lived
Post by Immortalist
out their entire life span in order for them to be expressed,
may
not
be
selected
Post by Immortalist
out. Therefore when the environment changes and the animals
live
out
their
entire
Post by Immortalist
lifespans then these disease may happen more often than in
species
that
live out
Post by Immortalist
their entire lifspans without predation.
The idea that "their full life span" is infinite is ridiculous.
Which part of the statement did you take as meaning "infinite" or
what do
you
mean by this?
Post by Nico Kadel-Garcia
Longer than
their current average life span, sure. But evenutally complex
organic
systems break down, due to factors like cancer, even without
the
telomeric
limitations of DNA being replicated.
When I asserted that, if the individuals are killed by predation
before
they
would have normally died then mutations,
Predation? I'm noticing that there is a particular leaning towards
paranoia in several threads. Which humans are being preyed upon and by
whom?
During the ancient past, particularly in the Pleistocene period the
homo
group
(Australopithecus) was preyed upon by predators in Africa. But during
much of
civilization the actual life span was about 25 to 45 years but the
biological
life span was much longer. So not only predators but barbaric cultural
realities
sustained the influx of senilicidical traits.
There is nothing that I can find in the post that you responded to above
that concened itself with earlier hominid species. In fact, the
statement above was "longer than their current life span".
My question was and which went unanswered (and I'll be more time
specific) which humans of today are being preyed upon and by what or
whom?
I would ask you to try making another thread if you want to change the
topic
that
much. I was responding to the "traits that can creep into the genome"
theory
and
explained my position on that.
It isn't another topic. It is a question based on an assertion in the
premise above.
When you entered me and Tim's conversation the subject was already shifted to the
effects of ancient enviroments upon trait creep into the genome. You tried to
change the subject to the present. We could change to the present if I can see
the relevence to the "genetic dust bin theory" we were debating.
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
I'm curious how people who tend to view themselves as rational and
intelligent view themselves as possible, probable and then likely
victims of such predation.
Rational people would generally believe it highly unlikely that most
people
could
be forced back into such barbarism but they are not ignorant enough
to
insist
that they couldn't be as your propositions seems to indicate you believe
to
be
the case.
And I'm asking that we test the rationality of this premise. What do you
consider is the degree to which it "could" be this way?
Well the degree noticed between rich and poor countries?
That's vague. Again, I must ask to what degree (a scale of 1 to 100
seems fair and reasonable) and by whom (an individual or a particular
group or other species)?
The degree currently would be higher or lower depending on the criterion or
standard of judgement. We haven't agreed to one yet. If you are asking me to post
a specific number what is the standard for judgeing such things;
The Problem of the Criterion
A general argument against the invocation of any standard for knowledge has come
to be known as "the problem of the criterion." As we have just seen, there have
been disputes about standards of knowledge. Some are about particular kinds of
arguments that provide evidence for knowledge claims. As we will see shortly,
others are about the degree of evidential support or reliability required for
knowledge. The Pyrrhonian skeptics used an argument designed to instill doubt
that any such standard can be established.
Suppose there is a dispute about a standard of knowledge. If the dispute is to be
settled rationally, there must be some means for settling it. It would do no good
of each side simply to assert its position without argument. So how would a
standard of knowledge (or "criterion of truth," in the language of the Stoics) be
defended? It could only be defended by reference to some standard or other. If
the standard under dispute is invoked, then the question has been begged. If
another standard is appealed to, the question arises again, to be answered either
by circular reasoning or by appeal to yet another standard. So either the process
of invoking standards does not terminate, or it ends in circular reasoning, and
in neither case would the dispute be settled rationally.
Lehrer takes on the problem of criterion in the guise of the question whether he
can justify his acceptance of his own theory of justification. He rejects the
appeal to a higher-order theory of justification as well as dogmatic acceptance
of the theory (p. 228). This leaves only circularity, or a "loop" of
justification. Lehrer defends the loop of justification as being virtuous.
http://hume.ucdavis.edu/phi102/tkch9.htm
http://hume.ucdavis.edu/phi102/lecmenu.htm
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
Post by Bob's Boyfriend
Post by Immortalist
that would influence or be expressed
during that later time, could slip into their genomes with nearly
no
selective
pressure against or for those mutations. By saying that I did not
necessarily
eliminate or promote the possibility that factors like cancer could
still
happen
or not. There is no contradiction here because it is based upon a
contingency
which asserts neither possibility to propose the thesis that
mutations
can
creep
in because of predation shortening lifespans. This theory of
senilicidical
traits
is 30 years old anyways.
If I wanted Lehrer's opinions then, I would read them. I am having a
discussion with you however. Referring me to what other people say about
this is rather pointless. (PS. This reminds me of talking to theists who
frequent quote biblical passages rather stating an opinion.)

I asked a simple question about a scenario that was proposed. I don't
thing that my requestion was unreasonable.

In the example of an individual reading about a serial killer in a
newspaper, in YOUR opinion, what would be the reasonableness (logical or
rational) of that assumption when hearing a clunking at the window. I
suggested a scale of 1 to 100 as a means to measure the likely,
probable, possible or unlikely event of this being true.

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